The Achilles Heel of SWTOR: No Macros

[xeroph34r]

xeroph34r- so you have that gaming mouse with the 12 or more buttons on it? I heard it has a steep learning curve. THe few times I have tried to take advantage of thumb buttons etc on my standard mouse, it has not worked. I think in WoW I tried runlock on thumb1, but it would not recognize it. I have a MX revolution mouse and I dont really have plans to outlay for a new $100 mouse yet, nor do I think the thumb reaches on it would work well.

Rotations work as long as there are no conditionals in it. For instance with Jedi Knight you have riposte, which is a non-gcd reactionary on a 6s cooldown. I have not been able to configure the scrolling combat text of this game to indicate reactionaries for Riposte, so there is that basic problem of hitting this ability involves staring at the icon to see when it lights up. Or take for instance a partial investment in momentum from Guardian (1 pt means force leap has a 33% chance to give you a free blade storm)...here we have a random factor entering into whether or not you can hit something out of rotation, and I am again reduced to staring at icons and playing whack-a-mole. Overall Jedi Knight is a headache of watching icons for reactionaries and cooldowns coupled with managing focus, and that headache could be easily remedied with a simple macro system in which it would proceed down a list checking if (a) you have enough focus to do it, and (b) the conditions of cooldown and reactionary have been met to enable it. With this macro system I could assign these things to one macro and dispense with staring with icons.

I think the true test of how immersive a game can be is this: Can you turn off the UI and still play your character at full functionality?

Macros would go a long way towards making that possible. There are some things that are unavoidable for the UI such as health and focus bars. Were you that Jedi, you would know how hurt you were without looking at a bar, or how much energy you had without looking at that bar, but the game can not easily convey these sensations to you other than through a bar. So health/mana bars will always be essential until game makers develop cheap touch feedback circuits that say apply increasing pressure on a glove to indicate low health, or some other non visual way.

But there is a world of difference from the necessity of having health/mana bars in a UI to having a cumbersome and complicated set of cooldowns and icon managment. I would think that a game company like Bioware that seeks immersive gaming as its point of distinction would be actively seeking to eliminate non-immersive distractions such as a cumbersome and icon-intensive UI.[/QUOTE

Yes I can turn off the UI and still play my char at full functionality, and as far as riposte is concerned you can tell by floating text, whenever it says dodge or parry its can be used, as for cooldown this is not something you should be spamming due to high resource use for low return

[tjgoalie]

Imo, part of the challenges of playing an mmo well is to be able to manage where you're looking at. You can't just stare at your buttons and cooldowns, but at the same time, you can't always stare at your character and environment. You have to be able to balance the two, which, when dome well, yields better results.

If you can't take a glance down at your actionbars to see if you can use an ability, like Riposte after leaping, then maybe you need to rethink how you play.

I understand how macros can help, but it really seems to be a quality of life thong and not a necessity. In WoW I barely used macros, and when I did, they were to use different cooldowns at the same time rather than clicking 2 different buttons or hitting 2 different keybinds. Did it make or break the game? No.

In other words, I can see why you would want macros, but they are in no way absolutely necessary for playing this game to the fullest.

[Dithanial]

a quality of life thong

Never heard of those before. Is it a big improvement?

[Zarathud]

[...] as for cooldown this is not something you should be spamming due to high resource use for low return

Unless you're an Immortal spec Juggernaut (or the JK equivalent) and riposte only costs 1 focus and procs a defensive buff. Then you really do want to spam it.

[Lepew]

Well riposte is not on the GCD, so you can hit it plus something else. If DPS is important and focus is not, this means instead of 1 attack in 1.5s, you have that attack plus riposte in that same 1.5s period. Furthermore riposte can not be parried or dodged, so it will land. If damage per focus is important, then yes sentinels may not want to use riposte, but defensive guardians with it enhanced should use it. As riposte is a conditional triggering off of a defensive move, it really shouldn't be up that much for a sentinel anyway.

[Izod]

Sure Macros would be a Quality of Life improvement, but that said, they're a pretty slippery slope in general. I think as players we've become to reliant on macros; and there are some strong arguments against them. My two biggest concerns are:

Macro reliance can cause game design to move to a point where macro usage is assumed, and the design itself becomes effected. This can come in part as either making class design more complex or giving it more buttons, or as simple as making an encounter such that you require a specific type of macro in order to effectively execute it. In FFXI you basically couldn't play the game without macros - at least not do so successfully. Macros in WoW largely aren't required (but make life 100x easier and make you a better player), but that game has so many other reliance's (add-ons) that it has largely been designed around them since early-mid BC.

It puts less tech savvy players at a disadvantage. Take my wife for instance, she will never get macroing, or even why you would want to use it. She probably doesn't need it for the content she does, but it puts macro-using players at a distinct advantage - if she ever did want to break into the world of PvP it'd be an even harder barrier than exists now (not that the current barrier is hard...). Just because you can write 2 lines of pseudo-code does not make you a better player, maybe a more devoted and research heavy player, but not a better player - nor should it have huge advantages.

In short I'm ok with QoL increases, just so long as it doesn't effect balance or design - which generally it inevitably does in some way shape or form.

Counterpoints: I simply don't buy the "can I play without the UI" thing. UI's are always necessary for any game of some complexity (sure games like Limbo don't require them) - in some way shape or form. You need to know your HP, your party's HP, etc. It's exceptionally rare for a game to have enough visual cues to completely eliminate a UI, and if they do, they are largely forced visual cues that really just change the way the UI is delivered to the end user - and could largely be communicated far better with a simple bar. FFXI was largely playable without a UI (if you don't count your life/mana/tp bar) but the lack of a well developed UI made the game far more painful then it needed to be, and it had little to do with immersion. Also, floating combat text is UI, just presented differently. Riposte lights up on your bar when you can use it, floating combat text would just be a different way of showing the same thing. That and macros wouldn't do anything in regards to that end, save for maybe link 1-2 abilities that share rotating CDs. You're talking about a redesign of the game, and there would still need to be on-screen indicators for about half a dozen things, even if your abilities weren't on there.

I agree the UI should have customization, they're working on it - but you kind of knew that going into the relationship - and I really feel UI and macros are a completely separate discussion. I'm a keybinder and I completely disagree with your sentiment that it has to be on the single bar, or that keybinders are at some magical disadvantage because they cannot macro or arrange icons in pretty patterns. There are plenty of abilities you don't have to use frequently enough to stare at their CDs, and can be linked to some other bar as well. Not to mention the bars in question are 24 long, you get 2 bars anchored at the center.

[Lucious]

Never heard of those before. Is it a big improvement?

In response to quality of life thongs:

Yes, they have a special "scrubber" strap that goes in your ass crack that removes any stray dingleberries. That is a major change from the standard thing that just kept them from falling out.

[Lepew]

Izod-

I get fears regarding casual gamers would be lost if they had to use macros to compete. But if you have too many skills that can not be mapped to keybinds, well, that forces me to click to compete. Your wife is unhappy at having to code macros to compete. I am unhappy being a clicker to compete. I suppose they could dumb it down some by removing a lot of the redundancy in single target attacks and have fewer skills, or skills that replace older versions, but I don't think they will.

I do agree (and have stated such previously) that there is no way to get rid of health bars etc from the UI. But there is a world of difference between coding that necessity, and have way too many non-macroable long cooldown attacks that necessitate UI intensive play. The health bar stuff is unavoidable. Having many long cooldown single target redundant attacks is avoidable. One can not logically state because the unavoidable is necessary, the avoidable is necessary too. The floating text stuff being configurable would help with reactives (IE make RIPOSTE in big letters when the condition occurs scroll), but I am not going to hold my breath waiting on that.

I would be interested in knowing what binds you assign to those 24 functions. I don't think you can get there without shifts, alts or paging through bars, or making long long reaches with the left hand. I am a less-is-more fan, and if you go much above needing 15 or so binds to function in a game, the game needs some pruning or macros.

[spoothead656]

This is the first MMO I've played seriously, so I don't understand the problem. Do you need 48 abilities hotkeyed? Do you actually use all 48 of your abilities? On my level 50 merc, I use about 6 abilities regularly and then maybe a dozen or so somewhat often. Of that dozen, I would say maybe half are purely out of combat (my rest, my speeder, etc.) so a hotkey for that is purely for convenience sake and not to give you an advantage during the game.

Either way, macros just don't make sense to me. That whack a mole analogy especially was weird because I would much rather play whack a mole than pay to watch someone play whack a mole. Call me old fashioned, but I play games to play them, not to press a button and have it play itself. You know what other game does that? New Super Mario Bros on Wii, because sometimes the game gets too hard for grandmothers to play and they don't want them to get stuck.

You're paying $15 a month for this guys. Actually play it.

[Lepew]

You really dont get it Spoot. Here are the abilities I use on my 34 JK Guardian so far

Focus Builders
1. strike (no cd, +1 focus)
2. sundering strike (4.5s, +2 focus)
3. force stasis (60s)
4. combat focus (60s)
5. force leap (15s)

comment- the entire energy mechanic of JK is based upon building focus...without it you can do nothing else. I have 5 abilities, 4 of which are on CD to deal with this. All of these (except leap) could be put in 1 macro with no great diminishment of play.

Single Target Focus dumps
6. slash (no cd)
7. hilt strike (60s cd, big threat)
8. blade storm (12s)
9. master strike (60s)
10. riposte (6s, reactive to parry/dodge)
11. pommel strike (45s, incap reactive)
12. opportune strike (15s, slow/immob reactive)

comment- these are the single target abilities. I will get another 2 or so later on. There are 7 so far, which is way overkill for this function. All but 1 are on cooldowns, and 3 are reactives/conditionals that really can not be used without an improvement. If I try to simplify by just sticking with slash, I miss out on shields generated by blade storm, big snap threat from hilt strike, strong defensive triggers from riposte, and big hitters like pommel and opportune. That is 6 hotkeys to stare at in addition to the previous 4 focus builders. Right now I do not use pommel or opportune because there is no room on my bar.

AoE focus dumps
13. cyclone slash (no cd, aoe arc)
14. force sweep (15s)

comment- Area of effect attacks are bread and butter, and thankfully there are only 2

CC break
15. resolute (120s)

comment- I can put this on a bar with a click, but in the thick of battle I need this as a blind bind

Slow
16. freezing force (no cd)

comment- dont use this now because no room for it, good to lock down a group and generate opportune condition

Taunts
17. taunt (15s)
18. challenging call (45s)

comment- bread and butter tanking taunts, imperative to have fast and ready to pull stuff off allies

Interrupt
19. force kick (8s)

comment- another essential interrupt used in boss encounters

Knockback
20. force push (60s)

comment- really just there for flavor, a cheap interrupt + reset for force leap. Not used now because no room.

Self heal/save bacon
21. enure (90s, health max incr)
22. call on the force (5min, mild heal, reset)
23. warding call (180s)
24 saber ward (180s)

comment- wound up putting all of these on a side bar and have to take eyes off of battle and click to use. Defensive cooldowns like these are necessary when your healer gets stunned or drained etc.

Shield others
25. guard (no cd)

comment- game turns off guard every single time you mount a speeder or zone. In PvP enviroment need to frequently switch targets with this because it has a range

Other Necessary Functions
26. Companion Bar 1 (attack)
27. Companion Bar 2 (passive)
28. Medikit
29. Centering (post combat heal)
30. speeder
31. target next
32-34. a-s-d as strafe and back movement takes up 3 keys
35. runlock (use this to move forward, toggle on and off to move, on a bind)

comment- If you duo with pets, you need to keep them in check. When I am gathering for a LoS cluster move have to put pet on passive. If pet selects wrong target need to force it onto focus target with the attack. Medikit needs to be on a hotbar. Centering (post combat heal) is very convieniant on hot bar. Same for speeder. Target next as well as the movement keys are also important.

OK so there are 35 things I need to use so far. I will acquire another 5 or so by the time I hit 50 and flesh out my talent trees. You can see the problem areas for me are in focus builders, single target attacks, and save the bacon buttons, all of which could be macroed to the improvement of the game. As it stands now I have 35 buttons, with another 4-5 coming by 50 to deal with. So call it 40 abilities.

I can only hotkey and reach 17-20. That means around 20 things I have to put on clicker bars and can not keybind. Put your left hand at rest at asdf. Now count the number of keys you can reach and reliably hit within reach of that left hand. I bet your number is no higher than 20. This is the fundamental problem with binds, you are physically constrained by the number of keys you can reach with your left hand reliably without looking.

20 of my abilities are on cooldown. That is a lot of moles to watch and whack separately. Perhaps that is the game you really like, watching 20 keys to light up? I like seeing the character spin and leap and kick in combat. I don't really enjoy missing that because I have to stare at 20 keys to come off of cooldown.

[Scyr]

Get a naga use cntrl, shift and alt. Honestly I have access to all my abilities. Personally I never liked macros they cheapen the game and make it a one button masher instead of actually thinking about how to play. Too each his own though.

[EjectPorkins]

...here we have a random factor entering into whether or not you can hit something out of rotation, and I am again reduced to staring at icons and playing whack-a-mole. Overall Jedi Knight is a headache of watching icons for reactionaries and cooldowns coupled with managing focus, and that headache could be easily remedied with a simple macro system in which it would proceed down a list checking if (a) you have enough focus to do it, and (b) the conditions of cooldown and reactionary have been met to enable it. With this macro system I could assign these things to one macro and dispense with staring with icons.

I agree with you that there is an issue in the visibility of CDs / procs the current UI provides but I disagree with your solution. If you are able to macro a single key press into making the decision about what ability to use through a series of if / and gates you are removing the complexity of the game. You reduce your rotation to a handful of key presses with no conscious thought over what ability those key strokes will execute.

My solution to this would be for the UI to be improved so that better visual cues are implemented for available abilities (similar to what Power Auras and later the default UI did for WoW) and highlight your resource bar in a better way. This would alert you to your CDs / procs and current resource state but place the onus on you to hit the right ability key based on that information.

...As it stands now I have 35 buttons, with another 4-5 coming by 50 to deal with. So call it 40 abilities.

I can only hotkey and reach 17-20. That means around 20 things I have to put on clicker bars and can not keybind...

What's wrong with <keybind>, <alt-keybind>, <shift-keybind> etc? Your 20 reachable keys have now become 40 (or 60) distinct actions. Your companion hotbar is already bound to <ctrl-keybind> but can be remapped. Personally I have the 2 thumb buttons on my mouse mapped to alt and shift which I use with action bar keybinds to expand my options on the 20 or so keys I can comfortably reach. Scyr suggested this above. Of course this is not particularly useful without better visibility of the CDs / procs.

I would not be averse to macros which let you combine abilities off the GCD together, or fire different abilities based on a modifier key. But I would oppose anything that allowed decision making based on procs / action availbility / resource. The problem is I don't know that you can start down the path of the former without opening the door for the latter.

[Izod]

Ugh forum at my post. So quick like:

• I'm ok with certain players having an edge from class research, etc. It's when game design is effected that I get concerned. Far too many games have had this happen. I can think of at least 2 examples of games where to be even mildly competitive in play you had to understand macros - some rather complex.
• Alt-Shift-Ctrl - Yes of course I use them. Any binder worth their salt does. I'm sorry but not liking them, isn't a valid complaint in modern PC gaming. It is what it is - the nature of the beast.
• I still don't understand what forces you to be a clicker. ALT+SHFT+CTRL R,F,C,X,Z,T,G,V,1,2,3 - that's what 33 binds there alone, without even considering their native bind of those keys for a total of 44. All with in resonable range of your left hand. Let's drop ALT because it's odd in that positioning, still at 33 when you add in native binds.
• You're complaint is more about ability bloat than it is about macros or UI. You want a way to click the same thing in any combat situation, well then really it should be one ability on a shorter cool-down, unless they are unique enough that they provide differing results in differing situations - in which case a macro won't solve your issue. Ultimately this is a design error most MMOs face - macros simply hide them better. There are a few occasions where I wish it would just cast X if Y was on CD - but again, that's ability bloat you're just bandaiding it with a macro.
• All that said I play a Juggs, the most bloated class in the game, and I don't have a lot of issues.
• I typically use a Naga now - it is what it is - and it's certainly not required, but given the amount of money my box cost, why the hell wouldn't I want a solid controller. Not using a gaming mouse/keypad is like buying an Xbox 360 and connecting an Atari joystick with one button.
• Also I agree with Porkins on every point he made.

[Lucious]

Face it, there are 2 types of players. 1 type is the guy keeps mashing the Tracer Missile button, the other is the guy who keeps mashing the Macro button that does 6 things for him.

The difference between the 2 button mashers is the one mashing the macro button has the same credibility with the vast majority of game players as Mitt Romney has with the auto workers when he started the assembly line in Michigan and said, "Well, I pushed a button. I guess that's my heavy lifting in manufacturing for the day."

For me, players who rely on macros are lazy and out of touch with the common gamer. I don't feel your pain of having to mash 4 buttons instead of 1 button. Your fingers must me in quite some pain. Believe it or not, those of us opposed to macro use understand your arguments for the institution of macro mashing. We just don't care or believe your reasons are support enough to give you the upper hand in PvP combat. Frankly, I don't care if you can use them in PvE. Perhaps they can add macro use for PvE but disable them in PvP situations in order to keep the playfield balanced. Kinda the idea that if everybody cannot benefit from them, nobody can be allowed to be given the upper hand by them.

One last word. If you play a class that has too many buttons to push and it isn't satisfying or is frustrating you, perhaps it is time to try another class.

[Cassell]

I don't see the need for macros in SWTOR, I prefer not having them personally. They make people lazy, I know because I used them on some games and became very lazy lol. My prot pally, I only needed two macros one with 6 second CDS and one with 9 second CD's and in Rift I really only needed one on my Shaman, maybe two on my Riftstalker. BOTH games I was already bored with and really didn't care so macros when you just want to push one button and be lame are great.

Macros (or lack thereof) are not the "Achilles Heel" of SWTOR. They are unnecessary.