Something that has crossed my mind.

[Cadika]

Who hear has benched over 250lbs
Ever ran a mile in under 8 minutes
Had a BMI under 5%
Ran a marathon
Planned a wedding
Fixed a house
Left his computer for more than 24 hours
Okay, I know the last one is the hardest but my point is everything on this list takes patience, practice, trial and error and effort to accomplish.
If you have never had a personal triumph then you will never understand the effort required to make an mmo work and should make something of your life before you critique someone else's "failings"

[Izod]

I've done most of that, save for benching over 250 - I'm not built for that.

It's quiet different to critique a product than an individual. As a paying customer for a service you have every right to critique a product - and ultimately if you don't like the direction of it, stop paying for it. Critiques that are well voiced and thoughtful make both services and individuals better, without them nothing changes.

[Cadika]

Izod you can attest then my point that each of these tasks require particular things to accomplish. And hecklers sure make it much harder to endure.
Btw, you wont often hear complaints from me but I have plenty.
My point is that there is a particular way and method to accomplish goals and whining without an understanding of how much goes into said task is foolishness of a level only the internet can fathom

[CarraigMohrr]

If you went to a neurosurgeon to fix an aneurysm and he paralyzed you, you wouldn't care about the skill and effort he used because clearly his skill and/or effort failed both him and you. We can applaud their skill while still critiquing the results if they fail to meet the rightful expectations of a critical consumer. That's our right for paying for a service.

[Cadika]

That is one of the most intelligent correllations i've seen. And if sound thought and rational discussion were the method of complaint....

[Cethron]

Only major difference in your argument there is one is a life and death situation and the other is pure entertainment.

As for me I have done several of those things and in my opnion rational opnions about the game makes since but if you just want to hate on it then most of us just don't want to hear it.

[intrepid70]

I've done all that save the running part. I run only when chased. Your point is moot. Who cares?

I was introduced to a guy that is a runner, when being introduced as a guy who runs, i asked from what?

Get over yourself. You're not that important, neither is your banter. Perhaps you should keep your self proclaimed whit and rhetoric to yourself. It's not that witty or amusing. Your attempts to feel better about yourself, at the sake of mundane, everyday tasks is beyond fail. Or, maybe, your self esteem is just that low. Regardless, none of your points directly correlate to how a MMO should operate or be ran. Your argument is weak at best and baseless beyond normal comprehension.

We all understand how being able to bench press 250lbs is a reasonable measurement on how to run a MMO. You can't be serious. This is not the reasoning of a rational mind.

If you believe for one moment that overcoming personal strife or conflict is even remotely equal to running a MMO, you need the kind of help that medication and straight jackets are for.

[Cadika]

I'm guessing public high school was too tough for you huh? It's okay. They say you can still get far in this world regardless of your handicaps.
As to my whit and charm, I understand. Using analogies instead of rage faced internet memes must be new to people not used to something the rest of the planet spends time in- sunlight.
In other news, anyone esle hear star wars music and your brain thinks first of the original trilogy then to what planets and instances play similar songs?

[Zargs]

Sorry Cadika but all the things you posted has nothing to do whit MMO's, may it be running one, making one or anyting about a MMO. Sorry but thats a fact.
Plz tell me in what way:
Who hear has benched over 250lbs
or Ever ran a mile in under 8 minutes
or Had a BMI under 5%
or Ran a marathon
or Planned a wedding
or Fixed a house
or Left his computer for more than 24 hours
has to do whit an MMO.

Better yet ask the Devs of SWTOR if anyone of them done all this.

[Galacticnerfherder]

Its a game folks. Play it or dont play it.

[Cadika]

The analogies are that each of these are activities that you cant just wake up and accomplish. Well, some of them can but the result is less impressive. In the same way, if the devs just woke up and slammed their fingers across the keyboard and called that code, it would be garbage.
No, instead, these guys went to school, learned coding from multiple styles and sources, developed patterns to code, test, and implement to meet standards. And as to the marathon analogy, betcha good money a lot of the programmers burn the midnight oil writing, re-writing, and pouring over code to find fix and patch errors and fine tune the programming.
Someone get these guys a copy of karate kid so they get that one task like scrubbing floors can teach and train for a completely different task.
Wax on wax off people

[Izod]

Izod you can attest then my point that each of these tasks require particular things to accomplish. And hecklers sure make it much harder to endure.
Btw, you wont often hear complaints from me but I have plenty.
My point is that there is a particular way and method to accomplish goals and whining without an understanding of how much goes into said task is foolishness of a level only the internet can fathom

People who don't voice their complaints have no room to have them. There is nothing wrong with voicing a complaint about a service (even if you don't understand the service's complexity), and it has nothing to do with the current accomplishments or lack thereof in the current service. Any MMO/game dev has to have thick skin and realize you aren't going to make everyone happy - it's part of the accomplishment and the adversity they overcome, not in direct opposition to it. Consumers/end users have every right to say whatever they want about a service they are paying for - if it doesn't change they stop buying it. The end user experience is all that matters to the consumer not the complexity of the accomplishment of the service. I don't know all the complexities of my smart phone - but I expect it to work; because I don't know how it functions at a base level does that mean I have no right to comment on it? That's what you're implying. How about one more, if you rent a car and it doesn't run after 2 days although you're paying for a week, do you have no right to complain because you don't know all the internal workings of it and/or the internal workings of the rental company? No.

There's a great many people who voice complaints (about MMOs) with exceptionally advanced math and very sound logic. I don't doubt there are plenty of people who don't understand the complexity of MMOs, but that doesn't mean we all don't - is also doesn't mean that those who don't understand it can't voice a sound complaint or critique.

Ultimately you haven't said anything other than "stop whining MMOz are hard." Yes running, developing, debugging, creating additional content - etc for MMOs are hard, that doesn't mean the player base can't voice opinions, concerns, feedback, etc. Carraig basically nailed it, thread should have ended there when your argument was made moot.

[Zargs]

The analogies are that each of these are activities that you cant just wake up and accomplish. Well, some of them can but the result is less impressive. In the same way, if the devs just woke up and slammed their fingers across the keyboard and called that code, it would be garbage.
No, instead, these guys went to school, learned coding from multiple styles and sources, developed patterns to code, test, and implement to meet standards. And as to the marathon analogy, betcha good money a lot of the programmers burn the midnight oil writing, re-writing, and pouring over code to find fix and patch errors and fine tune the programming.
Someone get these guys a copy of karate kid so they get that one task like scrubbing floors can teach and train for a completely different task.
Wax on wax off people

So basically everything in life then? Your life is 1 big road of learning. But a stupid way of saying that run a marathon is the same as code an MMO.
Everyting in life is learning.

[Cadika]

I apoligize if I have conveyed that you should not voice dissatisfaction with something because you don't understand how it works. If that were true, the male population of planet earth wouldn't be able to say a thing about women. ;p
My point was trying to broaden a narrow mindset so that we the consumer may have empathy, sympathy and grace to people who are toiling away to bring us a game we are paying them for.
If folks cannot grasp that through coice or inability, I don't have smaller words to use to help you get it and go ahead and keep raging about it.

[Izod]

I'm not quite sure why you keep attempting to insult other posters intelligence when your basic argument is vacuous and disjointed.

You can be thankful and respect previous accomplishments but that doesn't mean they should overshadow current failures. Which is essentially what you're asking of the community. It's also completely ignores the fact that a consumer is by it's nature paying for a service - meaning they can request whatever they would like to for it. If they both parties don't agree to the terms the contract written or otherwise then it is void and as such no service is performed and no payment is rendered (i.e. I like the game enough to pay $15/mnth for access). I understand that you seem to think consumers should have more empathy for those who's products and services we purchase which is all fine and dandy but that is largely unrelated to grievances.

For instance, being a food server - it's a pretty crappy job, and a lot harder than most people realize. You can respect that (and even reward it monetarily) and still have expectations of the service to be preformed. I don't want a waiter spitting in my food. I shouldn't just shrug my shoulders and say "oh well waiting is a tough crappy job, some spit should be expected."

You can absolutely still have respect and empathy while critiquing - the two are not mutually exclusive. You may believe that this community doesn't do a good job of that - but if you look at other MMOs I would whole heatedly disagree.

Now if you wanted to craft your argument so that it was more than just "look at stuff I did, Bioware did stuff too, Bioware good cause of stuff they do, whining bad" you might start with something more akin to this:

As a community I'm of the opinion that far too often we forget the hard work that goes into an MMO, as well as all of the things Bioware has done correctly. There are significant obstacles from technical, business, and even societal aspects that companies must overcome in order to bring us the services that we enjoy. To what degree does previous accomplishment, investment, and development effect our view of a service and should those aspects be more heavily considered when voicing our opinions? To flippantly dismiss basic ground-level constructions that enable the service itself does a disservice to those who worked on it, and should absolutely be considered when we voice any objections that we have. With that said, as a community let us work harder on voicing critiques in intelligent and logical ways that don't detract from Bioware's accomplishments.

Or you could just keep being a nonsensical and attacking other posters because of your own lack of clarity and sound argument. Either or.